Select a passage from this section of reading (ch. 19 through the end of the novel)that you find particularly interesting for what it reveals about Holden.
Type the passage (with citation) and discuss/analyze it.
Don't repeat the same passage as any of your classmates & be sure to sign your name, ya madmen & phonies.
"I hope to hell when I do die somebody has the sense to dump me in the river or something. Anything except sticking me in a goddam cemetary...When the weather's nice, my parents go out quite frequently and stick a bunch of flowers on old Allie's grave. I went with them a couple of times, but I cut it out. In the first place, I certainly don't enjoy seeing him in that crazy cemetary. Surrounded by dead guys and tombstones and all. It wasn't too bad when the sun was out, but twice - twice - we were there when it started to rain... I know it's only his body and all that's in the cemetary, and his soul's in heaven and all that crap, but I couldn't stand it anyway." (156)
ReplyDeleteThese thoughts are triggered when Holden is in the park and he is worried that he will catch pneumonia and die. Throughout the book Holden expresses opinions that are very different, if not completely opposite, to more widely accepted ideas and his thoughts on the cemetary are no exception. He first explains his dislike of cemetaries and states that he would rather be dumped in a river than buried in a cemetary. This comes across as very strange when it is first read and makes one wonder why he would not want to be "all fixed up", as he says, and have a final resting place where people can come to visit and remember him. Upon reading further, however, it becomes evident that this particualr opinion was triggered by the death of his brother, Allie. Allie is buried in a cemetary and Holden has gone to visit his grave a few times, but then stopped. He hated how everyone else could just leave when they wanted to and go anywhere they want, but Allie cannot leave even when it starts to rain. It is the rain that bothers him especially because he knows that there is nothing he can do about his brother being in that situation. Even though it is only Allie's body that is there and his soul is in heaven, Holden still worries about it probably because Allie's body is what Holden thinks of when he thinks about his brother. The body is something physical that he could see while the soul is not something tangible and a more difficult idea to grasp. This shows just how powerful the love and connection between the two brothers was. Since these feelings about Allie form the image Holden has of cemetaries, they have become a very negative thing in his mind, so much so that it seems he wants nothing to do with them. In conclusion, this passage reveals how the loss of Allie has had an impact on Holden and an influence on his opinions.
~Katie
“You can't ever find a place that's nice and peaceful because there isn't any...I think, even, if I ever die, and they stick me in a cemetery, and I have a tombstone and all, it’ll say ‘Holden Caulfield’ on it, and then what year I was born and what year I died, and then right under that it’ll say ‘Fuck you.’ I’m positive, in fact” (204).
ReplyDeleteAfter Holden discovers yet another graffitti depicting "Fuck you," he claims that there is no true peaceful place anywhere. There will always be one little aspect to ruin it. He was having a great time in the mummy exhibit but when walking through the passageway he grows angry at the sight of the profanity. Partly because of his care for his little sister, Phoebe. What if she did see it? What would she think? By stating that "you can't ever find a place that is nice and peaceful" emphasizes his pessimism. Holden is also convinced that society as a whole would desecrate his own tombstone with profanity. I found this as a rash judgement because it represents his distrust in society and signifies his belief that everyone is malignant, and completes malignant behaviors such as defiling a tombstone. Through his distrust in society, Holden also exemplifies that he accepts who they are, and that people will never change, in turn, he will forever be miserable.
I found the entire paragraph interesting but particularly the beginning. If one can not find peace, and 'niceness?' in a single location, then they are truly miserable, which Holden proves throughout the novel.
---JJ Courtney
"I thought it was 'If a body catch a body,',I said. Anyway , I keep picturing all these little kids playing in the some big field of rye and all. Thousands off little kids, and nobody's around-nobody big, I mean-except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What i have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff- I mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out somewhere and catch them. thats all I'd do all day. I'd just be a catcher in the rye in all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really like to be. I know it's crazy" (173).
ReplyDeleteHolden says this to Phoebe after she asks him what he wants to be when he's older (for a job). He tells her he wants to be a "catcher in the rye". The quote makes the reader think back to the little boy in the first half of the book who was singing this. Holden was also reminded of this and the boy reminded him of Allie, his little brother. After Allie died it seemed Holden could not get him out of his head. This quote shows that he feels at least somewhat responsible for Allie's death. If he was a "catcher in the rye" he could save other kids from 'going over the cliff' or dying. He does not want any other children dying because he cannot even face Allie's death.
This quote also shows that Holden is afraid to grow up. When he says "nobody around-nobody big, i mean-except me" it shows clearly for a second that he considers himself a child. He is so set on Allie's death and the responsibility he feels towards it he is afraid to grow up. He thinks if Allie cannot grow up i cannot either.
I found this entire quote interesting from the start because it was obviously connected to the song the little boy was singing. I also found this interesting because it contained the title of this book in it. This quote really shows the book as a whole. It shows the responsibility he feels for Allie's death and his shame of being the one who gets to grow up. He even wishes that he was dead and Allie was alive at some points of this book.
~ Emily Spiewak
“Then all of a sudden, [Phoebe] said, ‘Oh, why did you do it?’ She meant why did I get the ax again. It made me sort of sad, the way she said it.
ReplyDelete‘Oh, God, Phoebe, don’t ask me. I’m sick of everybody asking me that,’ I said. ‘A million reasons why. It was one of the worst schools I ever went to. It was full of phonies. And mean guys. You never saw so many mean guys in your life. For instance, if you were having a bull sessions in somebody’s room, and somebody wanted to come in, nobody’d let them in if they were some dopey, pimply guy. Everybody was always locking their door when somebody wanted to come in. And they had this goddam secret fraternity that I was too yellow not to join. There was this one pimply, boring guy, Robert Ackley, that wanted to get in. He kept trying to join, and they wouldn’t let him. Just because he was boring and pimply. I don’t even feel like talking about it. It was a stinking school. Take my word,’” (167).
When Phoebe asks Holden why he got himself kicked out of school, he feels sad, showing that she is one of the few people whose opinion of him he cares about. This is significant because Holden caries a lot of judgments and odium towards many people and their actions, but Phoebe’s innocence seems to trigger a more sympathetic response. His sensitivity and good heart is revealed through the rest of the passage. For example, though he is not necessarily crazy about Ackley, Holden does feel bad that he didn’t have the guts to stand up for Ackley even though he disagreed with their cliquey intolerance. Holden truly is a nice guy who loves kids and appreciates sincerity and acceptance. He even admits toward the end of the book that even the people who he was not the fondest of left an impact on him, and he missed them. This passage gave me greater insight into his behavior and patterns of thought. When people are being insincere, mean, or not doing things for the right reasons, Holden feels frustrated. His incompliance with the reality of the world may lead him to never be happy unless he can focus more on his own acceptance of others so that he does not “die nobly for some highly unworthy cause,” as Mr. Antolini can clearly foresee. That unworthy cause could this very moral frustration he feels, but he could never change the hearts of so many people, so I would just be interested to see how the rest of his life progresses – whether or not he will find happiness in other things, if he will find love and have children, and stop personally harnessing the things that he is most bothered by inside his own heart. That, to me, is how he could find happiness.
Priscilla Sena
“ ‘He kept talking to us the whole time, telling us how when he was at Pencey they were the happiest days of his life, and giving us a lot of advice for the future and all. Boy, did he depress me! I don’t mean he was a bad guy – he wasn’t. But you don’t have to be a bad guy to depress somebody – you can be a good guy and do it. All you have to do to depress somebody is give them a lot of phony advice whole you’re looking for your initials in some can door – that’s all you have to do. I don’t know. Maybe it wouldn’t have been so bad if he hadn’t been all out of breath. He was all out of breath from just climbing up the stairs, and the whole time he was looking for his initials he kept breathing hard, with his nostrils all funny and sad, while he kept telling Stradlater and I to get all we could out of Pencey. God, Phoebe! I can’t explain’ ” (168-169).
ReplyDeleteI think that this story, which Holden tells Phoebe when he visits her, really explains almost his entire attitude toward life. Everything makes Holden depressed. This episode, which takes place during some sort of reunion weekend at Pencey, makes Holden depressed. He says the man gave “phony” advice about enjoying their time at Pencey. It’s no surprise that Holden calls the advice phony – everything is phony to Holden. This passage made it clear to me that Holden is almost getting in the way of his own happiness. He automatically labels something “depressing” or “phony” and suddenly that’s all it is or can be. Holden doesn’t ever examine anything further. He just acts like he’s seen everything before, like nothing ever surprises him, when I think that Holden is still doing a lot of discovering about the world. I think that he wants to experience things and have adventure but doesn’t because he fears being inauthentic. He claims to be real, but in his current mindset all he ever does is judge, which makes him the opposite of what he wants to be.
He sees this man getting very excited over the fact that his initials may still be carved into a bathroom door from his old prep school days, and automatically calls the incident depressing. The man’s happiness isn’t phony, but Holden immediately says that it is. Holden doesn’t say why it makes him sad but I can guess that maybe he sees this man in all his supposedly “fake” happiness, and Holden tells himself that he doesn’t want his life to be like that, even though he secretly does. He wants to be able to enjoy life and be spontaneous and everything, but his fears always get in the way. He just tells himself that he is miserable instead of deciding whether he really is.
- Susanna Sigler
"If you want to know the truth, I don't know what I think about it. I'm sorry I told so many people about it. About all I know is, I sort of miss everybody I told about. Even old Stradlater and Ackley, for instance. I think I even miss that goddam Maurice. It's funny. Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." (213-214).
ReplyDeleteThis passage is the last section of the novel where Holden is speaking from a later time looking back on his experience. This quote reveals a lot about Holden, particularly how he has changed. By saying he starts "missing everybody" it shows that he has actually find something or someone he likes. Earlier, Phoebe challenges Holden to name just one thing he likes, and after some thought he can only think of Allie and talking to Phoebe. Now, it is apparent that Holden likes other people that he met along the way and that he actually enjoyed parts of his experience. Also, by saying that he missed people, it shows that he has become much less bitter than he was earlier in the story. He is finally realizing that he had people in his life that he enjoyed being with and this really shows how his journey changed him.
-Kevin Manning
“I have a feeling that you’re riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall. . . . The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. . . . So they gave up looking.”
ReplyDeleteThis is part of a conversation that took place between Holden and Mr. Antolini in chapter twenty-four. After leaving home at the brink of tears, Holden goes to visit Mr. Antolini in the hopes that he could confide his innermost thoughts with him. He thinks it will help him save himself, but thats not what happens. Instead, Holden has a full on breakdown, that unsettles him and leaves him confused to the untmost degree. Mr. Antolini makes Holden changes the way he perceives things to be and how he believes they out to be. Also, Holden tends to envision himself as the protector rather than the one to be protected, he is the one who really needs to be caught. Mr. Antolini guesses that Holden feels disconnected from his environment, and, as we have already seen, his assessment is accurate. Holden has isolated himself in an attempt to be his own savior. Thus revealing to readers his greatest weakness in life.
Kristen Gagne
"What he was doing was, he was sitting on the floor right next to the couch, in the dark and all, and he was sort of petting me or patting me on the goddam head. Boy, I'll bet I jumped about a thousand feet.
ReplyDelete'What the hellya doing?' I said.
'Nothing! I'm simply sitting here, admiring-'
'What're ya doing, anyway?' I said over and over again. I didn't know what the hell to say - I mean I was embarrassed as hell.... I know more damn perverts, at schools and all, than anybody you ever met, and they're always being perverty when I'm around.
'You have to go where?' Mr.Antolini said. He was trying to act very goddam casual and cool and all, but he wasn't any too goddam cool. Take my word" (192).
This scene occurs when Holden spends the night at the house of his old teacher, Mr. Antolini. When Holden wakes up in the middle of the night to find that Mr.Antolini is "petting me or patting me on the goddam head," he immediately assumes the worst. Although it seems kind of creepy, Mr.Antolini was not touching Holden in an inappropriate way. For all the reader knows, it could have been a drunken attempt at a paternal gesture.
Holden's reaction shows his view of the adult world. He assumes that Mr.Antolini is a "damn pervert" and gets away from him as fast as possible, not even letting Mr.Antolini explain. Holden reads into Mr.Antolini's reaction that "he was trying to act very goddam casual and cool and all, but he wasn't any too goddam cool." This is just one more instance of Holden making judgments of adults that are not only unflattering but perhaps unjustified.
However, on the other hand, Holden's reaction shows that he is more aware than most boys his age. He makes the decisions he does to keep himself safe. This intuition may have been an overreaction, but it may have saved him from the drunken advances of a pervert. This reveals that he is self-reliant and street smart.
~Emily Van Laarhoven
“You don’t like anything that’s happening.’ It made me even more depressed when she said that. ‘yes I do. Yes I do. Sure I do. Don’t say that. Why the hell do you say that…. ‘I like Allie’… ‘Allies dead- you always say that! If somebody’s dead and everything, and in heaven, then it isn’t really-’ ‘just because somebody’s dead, you don’t just stop liking them, for God’s sake-especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people you know that’re alive and all.’”(169-171)
ReplyDeleteThis conversation took place in chapter twenty two between Holden and his sister Phoebe. She had realized that Holden was kicked out of school again and told him that he didn’t like everything in life. After he thought for a while, the one thing he said he liked was his dead brother Allie. At this point, Holden’s deep sadness for his brothers’ death is shown. Throughout the book, Holden would constantly call everyone he saw a phony and hated most people but through these actions he was truly trying to cover up his sadness for Allies death. Then, after Phoebe told Holden Allie was died, he stated that he could still like him “especially if they were about a thousand times nicer than the people you know that’re alive and all.” This line shows why Holden hates a lot of people. He can never find anyone who is as great as his brother and feels since his brother inst here, he can give up on life. I feel that at this point, Holden himself also sees the impact his brother had on his life and shows it publically for the first time.
-Corrine Ahrabi-Nejad
ReplyDelete“I went around the room, very quiet and all, looking at stuff for a while. I felt swell, for a change. I didn’t even feel like I was getting pneumonia or anything any more” (159).
ReplyDeleteThis passage occurs expresses Holden’s love for Phoebe and how she is one of the limited things that can allow Holden to feel happy. Over the remainder of the story, Holden has liked very limited things and is constantly depressed. However, he obviously has a strong love for his siblings Allie, who has passed away, and Phoebe. Holden is seen on several occasions talking about his siblings and how much he misses them. This passage is the first time we have seen Holden and Phoebe together. Holden has snuck into Phoebe’s room without her waking up and is just looking through her stuff. From this passage, one can see that Phoebe is one of the only things that can make Holden happy. At this point he is not even talking to her, but the fact of being reconnected with her again overjoys him. All of the problems and dilemmas he had over the course of his journey escape him now that he is back with his sister. One example of when is love for Phoebe is shown is when he accidentally drops the record he had bought for her previously. Even though this is a small task, the fact that the record was for Phoebe angered Holden at his foolish mistake. Phoebe and Holden share a strong bond of love with one another and even though Holden is often depressed, he does have love in his heart for the true things he cares about.
- Nolan Lescalleet
"I didn't care, though. I felt so damn happy all of a sudden, the way old Phoebe kept going around and around. I was damn near bawling, I felt so damn happy, if you want to know the truth. I don't know why. It was just that she looked so damn nice, the way she kept going around and around, in her blue coat and all. God, I wish you could've been there" (page 213)
ReplyDeleteI liked this passage a lot because of the innocence in it and immense joy Holden expresses. Something as simple as watching his little sister go around a carousal is what brings him happiness. For the duration of the book Holden feels depressed and longs for human interaction. In this scene he receives this human contact he craves and he feels joy for the first time in a long time. This is the only scene in the whole book, as far as I know, that Holden declares himself fully happy.
A few pages before Holden says "the thing with kids is, if they want to grab for the gold ring, you have to let them do it, and not say anything. If they fall off, they fall off, but it's bad if you say anything to them (211)." This statement I believe is him coming to the conclusion that growing up is a necessary fact of life and you can not control it. You need to take steps and risks in order to get anywhere. After he comes to this realization he senses his first glimpse of true happiness.
Haley Hughes
Katie- What a lovely quote & sensitive reflection.
ReplyDeleteJJ- really interesting point about Holden's distrust in society. What does Holden's desire for niceness and despair at the dirtiness of the world show about him?
Emily S- Great ideas about an important quote. I think the cliff can represent death but also the death of innocence. It's interesting that the kids don't even know the cliff is there.
Priscilla- Beautifully written reflection!!! I especially like how you said "When people are being insincere, mean, or not doing things for the right reasons, Holden feels frustrated. His incompliance with the reality of the world may lead him to never be happy unless he can focus more on his own acceptance of others so that he does not “die nobly for some highly unworthy cause,” as Mr. Antolini can clearly foresee."
Susanna- Another beautiful post. I love the insight when you wrote: "He automatically labels something “depressing” or “phony” and suddenly that’s all it is or can be. Holden doesn’t ever examine anything further. He just acts like he’s seen everything before, like nothing ever surprises him, when I think that Holden is still doing a lot of discovering about the world. I think that he wants to experience things and have adventure but doesn’t because he fears being inauthentic. He claims to be real, but in his current mindset all he ever does is judge, which makes him the opposite of what he wants to be."
Kevin- Good point about this important and telling passage. I've always wondered if he changed or if he's actually now speaking what he's always felt and what actually made him so depressed: That he likes, even loves, almost everything-even the bad stuff in the world like Maurice- and he hates the idea that time passes and people and things go away...because you miss them.
Kristen- good insight! Excellent point that "Holden tends to envision himself as the protector rather than the one to be protected, he is the one who really needs to be caught."
Emily V- Good choice of quote. This one often creeps out a lot of students, but I agree with the way you interpreted it. I think Mr. A is very worried about Holden and seems him as the child he is.
Corrine- I also think it's interesting that it's Phoebe, who is much younger, that can accept Allie's death.
Nolan- Nice points. Holden truly shows a different self around Phoebe.
Haley- Excellent points. It sure is nice to see Holden filled with joy!
=LC
“Just so people didn’t know me and I didn’t know anybody. I thought what I’d do was, I’d pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. That way I wouldn’t have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody,” (198).
ReplyDeleteThis passage takes place when Holden decides he wishes to leave home and start a life of solitude. He eventually sets his mind on moving out west so he doesn’t have to deal with his family and the pressures of getting an education. This passage reveals that Holden does not enjoy dealing with people and would rather opt to live a life where he doesn’t have to communicate with anyone. This seems to contrast other parts of the book where Holden talks about missing people from his past, such as Stradlater and Ackley, who are no longer a part of his life. He does not realize how much of an impact these relationships have on his life and who he is as a person, so he feels he should just be alone. It seems as though Holden is not truly thinking logically about his farfetched plan for his future, and he most likely would regret making such a decision. The way Holden chooses to describe conversations, as “goddamn stupid useless” is just another example of his pessimism and hatred of life that recurs throughout much of his journey. This helps to reflect his overall personality, although there are occasional glimpses, especially towards the end of the novel, that show he has changed his outlook on life for the better.
~Andrea Bacon
“‘But what I mean is, lots of time you don’t know what interests you most till you start talking about something that doesn’t interest you most. I mean you can’t help it sometimes. What I think is, you’re supposed to leave somebody alone if he’s at least being interesting and he’s getting all excited about something’” (184-185).
ReplyDeleteI found this passage to be very interesting because it seems to explain a lot about Holden’s motives throughout the story. The first part of the quote seems to give the message that you won’t know if you like something unless you try it first. This relates to his encounter with Sunny back at the hotel. He wasn’t exactly sure what to expect when he agreed to have a prostitute come to his room, but he didn’t back out of it. He even tried to strike up a conversation with her, but she pretty much repudiated any of his attempts at doing so. From this experience, Holden realized that he actually did not want to do this, and so he decided not to go through with it. His realization seems to emphasize the truthfulness of the first part of this quote. It appears that you really don’t know until you try.
The second part of the quote connects significantly to the things that Holden has found phony during his days in New York. During his conversation with a cab driver about ducks, he was really interested in the behavior of the ducks during wintertime and kept asking where they go. The cab driver didn’t seem to care much at all, and in fact, he seemed to get angrier the further they got in their conversation. This might have been Holden’s reason for telling Mr. Antolini that you should “leave somebody alone if…he’s getting all excited about something.” Although in that conversation he was saying that about Richard Kinsella, he might have connected that to himself in a way. He most likely disliked how the cab driver was uninterested while talking to Holden, and instead of just letting him talk, he just kept getting angrier. Another example of this is when Holden is watching Ernie playing the piano in a night club. He continues to hate on him though, calling some of his tricks “dumb” and a “pain in the ass.” However, despite this, he keeps it all to himself, and does not feel the need to go and tell anyone about it. He understands that Ernie probably thinks he’s really awesome and interesting to watch, so he decides to leave him alone. I just think that it is very interesting how Holden doesn’t really want to disturb people if they’re all excited because it shows that he keeps to himself and it really emphasizes the internal conflicts within him.
-Jon Tsai 2.71828183…
“Then, all of a sudden, I started to cry. I couldn’t help it. I did it so nobody could hear me, but I did it. It scared the hell out of old Phoebe when I started to do it, and she came over and tried to make me stop, but once you get started, you can’t just stop on the goddam dime. I was sitting on the edge of the bed when I did it, and she put her old arm around my neck, and I put my arm around her, too, but I still couldn’t stop for a long time. I thought I was going to choke to death or something” (179).
ReplyDeleteIn this passage, Holden’s reaction to Phoebe giving him money reveals that he is struggling with his life after dropping out of Pencey. Throughout the book, Holden talks about how he is depressed and you can also tell he is depressed by some of his actions. When Holden cries when Phoebe gives him the money is the breaking point for him. He talks about how much he loves Phoebe and how he will do anything for her through the story. When Holden starts to cry and Phoebe starts to help him, this reveals that Holden can’t always rely on himself and keep trying to escape from his problem. Sometimes you need to ask for help, and it seems that Holden is too afraid to gain the courage to ask for help sometimes. Holden crying shows that he realizes that he is struggling and needs help. Even though Holden tries to be a role model for Phoebe and keep a strong face on for her, he needs to realize you need to face the problem, because you can’t run away from it forever.
~Kate Sears
“But while I was sitting down, I saw something that drove me crazy. Somebody'd written "Fuck you" on the wall. It drove me damn near crazy. I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they'd wonder what the hell it meant, and then finally some dirty kid would tell them – all cockeyed, naturally – what it meant, and how they'd all think about it and maybe even worry about it for a couple of days. I kept wanting to kill whoever'd written it. I figured it was some perverty bum that'd sneaked in the school late at night to take a leak or something and then wrote it on the wall. I kept picturing myself catching him at it, and how I'd smash his head on the stone steps till he was good and goddam dead and bloody. But I knew, too, I wouldn't have the guts to do it. I knew that. That made me even more depressed.” (201)
ReplyDeleteThis quote shows not only how much Holden wants to preserve the innocence of children, but also to what extents he feels are necessary to preserve that innocence. Holden, upon seeing “Fuck you” written on the wall, worries about the children seeing it, because he knows that things like this are the things that destroy the purity of children. However, this message is nothing new in the book. What is new is how strongly he feels about the person who wrote the message. Holden describes, in graphic detail, how he wishes he could kill the person who wrote it, how he would “smash his head on the stone steps.” Although Holden knows that he would not be able to bring himself to carry out this punishment, he still feels that the author of this profane piece of graffiti deserves to die; this shows how intensely Holden cares about preserving the innocence of children.
-James Massucco
Particularly in chapter 19 Holden is defined with two major characteristics. Not only is it revealed how lonesome he truly, but it also shows how he is somewhat an average teenager.
ReplyDelete"'Maybe I'll go to China. My sex life is lousy," I said.
'Naturally, Your mind is immature.'"(147)
then...
"'Have just one more drink,' I told him. 'Please. I'm lonesome as hell"(149)
I feel as though through out this book Salinger is trying to make the reader connect with Holden and place them in his shoes. He takes the raging hormones of a teenager and loneliness to create a bond. I think that is the reason why this book has made such an impact. Every person has felt the same way as Holden whether they want to admit it or not. In this case, Holden is trying to find a connection with Luce and fails, again. It's apparent that Luce has little or no desire to become personal with Holden. It's a part of human nature that we are drawn to certain people. Even though Luce is a douche, Holden still tries to be friends with him because that means he is a little bit less lonely. I feel that if Holden weren't such a confused and lonely wreck he would completely disregard Luce and see that he can do much better. What I also find interesting about this book is how well developed Holden is yet everyone can still relate to him. It's as if he's unique but not, if that makes sense. At the same time that's the element that makes this book so well known and just plain out good.
StEpHaNiE PiErCe xoxoxox
“Old Phoebe didn’t even wake up. When the light was on and all, I sort of looked at her for a while. She was laying there asleep, with her face sort of on the side of the pillow. she had her mouth way open. It’s funny. You take adults, they look lousy when they’re asleep and they have their mouths way open, but kids don’t. Kids look all right. They can even have spit all over the pillow and they still look all right” (158).
ReplyDeleteMost people determine that the roots of all of Holden’s problems stem from Allie’s premature death. I partially agree, but those roots grew into a huge tree, and that tree represents Holden not being ready to grow up. Allie died when he was a child, and never had the chance to grow into an adult. Holden is being forced into growing up, and doesn’t think it is fair that he has to while his brother was unable to. There almost is a chain reaction from Allie’s death: Allie dies, Holden notices he couldn’t grow up, Holden doesn’t want to grow up without his brother, Holden resists school because learning is preparation for the ‘real world’, Holden gets expelled.
This quote accentuates Holden’s disdain for adults. It shows he recognizes a child’s perfect innocence and beauty. Allie’s innocence is violated, and Holden has no one to blame, so he blames adults, or mature people, because Allie never got to be one. This also explains why Holden says so many things are “phony”. He calls adults, or even kids who act grown-up, phony’s because it wasn’t real for Allie. I think Holden is scared to face the world without his brother. Although Allie was younger, Holden looked up to him and was inspired by him. Allie is pulling him towards childhood while the living forces in his life are shoving him into adulthood, and he isn’t yet ready.
He resists adulthood by taking every opportunity to recognize children as good and grown-ups as evil. The example with the pillow is only one of many. Holden has this perfect image of Allie is his mind, and sees all children now the way he saw Allie. Drooling with their mouths wide open is okay, because they have endless fantasies and possibilities, while adults have chosen their paths and have no more choices to make. Holden sees children as the people who will make the decisions that Allie never got to, so he values them because they have something Allie should have had but never got. They have the world at their fingertips, and Holden wants to see them grasp and achieve what he thinks he will never be able to do.
---Kaitlyn Labich---
"I'm not going away anywhere. I changed my mind. So stop crying and shut up." (207)
ReplyDeleteIn this passage, we see Holden step outside of his cynical world by realizing that others will be affected by him leaving, including his sister Phoebe, whom he was speaking to. Phoebe seems to be the only one who expresses true compassion for Holden throughout the book. Holden finds a sense of security in Phoebe's recognition of him. He no longer feels as if he will vanish like Allie had. Later in the chapter, Phoebe returns the hunting hat to Holden. This is the first time we see a recriprocal action between Holden and another person. When Holden decides to stay at home for Phoebe, she returns his generosity by giving his hat back. This interaction marks the gradual shedding of Holdens thick, cynical skin. He is finally able to successfully interact with another person in a way that benefits them both. While Stradlater and Ackley used Holden for their own needs, and while Holden Refuses the help of his teachers, Phoebe brings out the only mutual act of kindness that Holden experiences throughout the entire book.
Hannah
"About all I could think of were those two nuns that went around collecting dough in those beat up old straw baskets. Especially the one with the glasses with those iron rims. And this boy I knew at Elkton Hills. There was this one boy at Elkton Hills, named James Castle, that wouldn't take back something he said about this very conceited boy, Phil Stabile. James Castle called him a very conceited guy, and one of Stabile's lousy friends went and squealed on him to Stabile. So Stabile, with about six other dirty bastards, went down to James Castle's room and went in and locked the goddamn door and tried to make him take back what he said, but he wouldn't do it. So they started in on him..." (170)
ReplyDeleteWhen Phoebe is asking Holden to name one thing he likes a lot, the first two things that come to his mind are the two nuns he spoke with, and this guy named James Castle he met at another school. This particular section in my opinion really paints a picture of the kind of people that Holden almost has a sort of respect for. Not once does he refer to them as "phony" in any way shape or form as he describes his thoughts on how James Castle wouldn't take back something he said, and he ended up killing himself because of what Stabile and his "dirty bastard" friends did to him.
The first thing that comes to mind is that James Castle is a lot like Holden himself, and the situation he describes is a lot like his own encounter with the elevator boy Maurice. When Holden refused to pay the 10 bucks that Maurice and Sunny lied about, he stuck to the facts and refused to admit to a lie he never made about the price of a "throw" being 5 bucks. The point being is that the first things Holden really likes a lot are people who are not afraid to stand by what they say, and people who are honest in their purpose. James Castle refused to take back his comment on Stabile for being conceited, despite the abuse he received, like Holden in his situations. The nuns I think from Holden's point of view were almost the only people other than his own family that he did not think were phony or conceited.
Holden's thoughts in this passage I believe reveal the kind of people he liked, in a sense. James Castle was similar to Holden with his thoughts on proud, egotistical kind of guys, and the nuns on the other hand are willing to give up their time to talk to Holden in a decent conversation without getting irritated by him. Maybe because Holden knows that nuns are dedicated people devoted to a higher purpose other than their own being he thinks of them first. In all, it seems the people that Holden shows a liking towards are honest people who don't have mindsets above others as well as stand by their beliefs no matter what the given situation is. The nuns and James Castle are probably the only two people he does not say anything negative about, and ironically, he barely even knew them at all.
-Dan Digilio
“Just so people didn’t know me and I didn’t know anybody. I thought what I’d do was, I’d pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes. That way I wouldn’t have to have any goddamn stupid useless conversations with anybody,” (198).
ReplyDeleteHolden is an interesting character and beyond disturbed I think. On the outside he's miserable and depressed. He'll do things that land him in trouble or hurt other people. I like reading about him though because he keeps me awake and isn't like other characters who are just plain and predictable. To pretend to be something as serious as a deaf mute just so he doesn't have to talk to anyone is outrageous but sums up his view on the world around him. He wants absolutely nothing to do with it at all and will do anything to avoid being a part of it. However, I think if you look deep enough he really isn't as bad as he wishes he was. He hates a lot of things but it takes energy to hate, and if he really did not care he would mope around and well, not care. I believe his passion for hating everything keeps him sane and well.
-Maddie
Jon, I believe the question you're looking for is "What is e?"
ReplyDeleteSteph P. throwing down the d-bomb. hmmm.
Sweet posts peeps.